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Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland 
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Joined: 12 Aug 2011 12:56
Posts: 361
Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
Freedom of Information N.I :mrgreen:
PSNI data information from its firearms database

Almost 60,000 members of the public own over 146,000 firearms with the remaining 7,018 legally held guns belonging to serving police and prison officers.

The Detail has been given rare access to information stored on the PSNI’s Shogun firearms database in response to a Freedom of Information request we submitted earlier this year.

We have analysed detailed information provided on each of the 59,585 people living in Northern Ireland who currently hold firearms licences.

Key proposals include varying the firearms licensing fees and reducing the age at which young people can use shotguns and airguns to 12-years-old under certain conditions.

This includes that the young person must be supervised at all times by a person who is at least 21 and who holds and has held a firearm certificate for the type of firearm in question for at least 3 years.

Speaking as he launched the consultation, Justice Minister Ford said: “It is estimated that based on the current licensing fees, the PSNI only recover on average 36% of the costs of administering the regime. I consider this to be unsustainable. “While I understand that no-one would welcome an increase in fees, the proposals represent a realistic cost for the administration of such an important service. The licensing regime needs to be efficient and represent value for money, while delivering a high standard of public service to meet customer expectation.”

The proposed new fees take account of the cost of firearms enquiry officers’ home visits on applicants, inspections of land and storage cabinets, making local enquiries and providing a report to the PSNI’s Firearms and Explosives Branch as part of the application process.

The branch currently administers an average of over 20,600 firearms-related applications every year – including change of address or varying certificates. On average there are 256 refusals per year – around 1.2% of applications received.

Other proposals the Minister is seeking views on include enabling a firearms dealer to substitute one firearm for another within specific bands and provisions concerning non-Northern Ireland residents visiting the province with firearms for sporting purposes.

This would remove the need for the Chief Constable to issue certificates of approval for holders of firearms certificates or shotgun certificates in Great Britain to travel to Northern

“The issue of firearms licensing is a matter for the Chief Constable, who is accountable to the Northern Ireland Policing Board.”


20 Jan 2014 10:27
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009 13:17
Posts: 1036
Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
Quote:
146,000 firearms with the remaining 7,018 legally held guns belonging to serving police and prison officers.


Miniature Wunderland :shock:


20 Jan 2014 11:07
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Joined: 14 Nov 2009 13:21
Posts: 122
Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
Backstop Benny wrote:
bit of northern efficiency,if ya ask me they would come south to change our ways and forget ya miss the fun things gettin the license :lol: :lol:

Quote:
5 years, license your guns for 50 quid

benny, can i pay in euros :D


28 Jan 2014 12:30
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009 13:17
Posts: 1036
Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
5 years license/reloading/5000.50 cals/5 guns/60 euro :lol: :lol:


28 Jan 2014 13:14
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Joined: 12 Aug 2011 12:56
Posts: 361
Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
Backstop Benny wrote:
5 years license/reloading/5000.50 cals/5 guns/60 euro :lol: :lol:


No problem up there benny for u why not
You're a law abiding citizens who have undergone the prescribed background checks should not be penalized for the activities of those that break the laws of the land. Restricted firearms and calibers thing dosen't impact on those who ILLEGALLY acquire their weapons and use them for criminal purposes.

Another Official Report (Hansard) :mrgreen:


Session: 2012/2013
Date: Thursday, 28 February 2013

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/Assembly-B ... -Briefing/

Committee for Justice
Firearms (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland)

We very much support the age reduction for young shooters. Although the consultation proposed to reduce the age to 12, we are very much of the opinion that it should be reduced to 10, which is the age of criminal responsibility in Northern Ireland. We are not talking about giving firearms certificates to people aged 10; we are simply talking about letting a young person aged10 use a shotgun or airgun under the supervision of a 21-year-old who has three years' experience with that type of firearm and holds a firearms certificate for it.

I will cover the banded system very briefly. It has been compiled by merging the guidance on Northern Ireland firearms controls and the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004, which is the law. The guidance, clearly, is not the law. At the back of the Northern Ireland guidance on firearms controls is a table of calibres, which sets out what a certificate holder will get — in other words, a 0·17 rifle for rabbits or a 0·223 for fox control. That is the gist of it. However, PSNI firearms licensing has issued rifles of calibres not contained in the guidance. We do not have an issue with that; we understand why it does that, and we support it. It has issued rifles of calibres that are not contained in our guidance but are contained in the Home Office guidance. Somewhere in the firearms licensing branch will be one of these books with — exactly as we have it — the page from the Home Office guidance cut and pasted in. Our guidance does not have the 0.223, and so on, and so forth, but the Home Office guidance does. To cut a long story short, the banded system came about simply by us merging the two documents, so we cannot understand why the police have an issue with it when, technically, it already exists. The bands are already in our guidance and in the Home Office guidance.

We are pretty much there as far as our presentation goes. You have our respective consultation responses. It is probably appropriate to move now to the question-and-answer stage.

Mr Dickson: This has been very helpful and a lot of information has come out today. The ACPO guidance recognises that there are inefficiencies in its system and, effectively, offers a discount as an incentive to itself to resolve those inefficiencies. I thought that the PSNI was saying to us today that it had looked at those inefficiencies and was ironing them out. You are telling us that you believe that there are lots of inefficiencies in its system. Will you highlight one or two of the key inefficiencies as you see them, explain how you would cost those and what impact you see those having on the cost to you?

Mr D Robinson: One of the main points is that this is based on the systems in place now. We strongly contend that the PSNI's FEB is not accountable. The whole review was not carried out correctly. There are, for example, 36 firearms enquiry officers (FEOs) in the system. That is over half the workforce of the whole licensing system. BCS never spent a day on the ground with those guys. So is there any slack in the system? What are those guys doing? Could they be aiding the system elsewhere? None of that was done. The whole BCS review was done by way of conversation and consultation. It was not about going out and doing time-and-motion studies.

Mr Dickson: So you think that there are substantial efficiencies to be driven out of the system?

Mr D Robinson: Substantial.

Mr Plant: Another item that was brought up related to the manning levels in the FEB. It was stated that the FEB was not fully manned, but the proportion of the fee being added would be for a fully manned FEB. Therefore, if applications are sitting around for 10 weeks, are the staff being part-funded for doing other work, and is that coming under different cost headings?

Mr Dickson: They did tell us that it was based on full cost recovery.

Mr Plant: Yes, but full cost recovery for an FEB branch that is fully staffed. However, the opinion given today was that it is not fully staffed and, given the resources that the Chief Constable has, it probably never will be. What is the proper staffing level, and what is the proper time to produce a certificate?

Mr Mayne: The Firearms Dealers' Association and my colleague David have talked about accountability. Accountability is one of the major issues, and I will give you a few examples, if I may. We have a member who applied for his firearms certificate just over a year ago, and we covered this issue with the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure this morning. That is a fairly significant time frame. We totally understand that the PSNI has a duty to protect public safety and to ensure that those who should not possess firearms do not possess firearms. However, there is absolutely nothing that Mark Hamilton, the Chief Constable, the head of the firearms branch or anybody else for that matter could tell any of us that would justify such a protracted time frame.

I want to be very clear about this: we are not saying that the person should get a firearms certificate, because we do not know the background. We are saying that it should not take a year under any circumstances for a person's application for a firearms certificate to be accepted or refused. The bottom line is that the person is either fit or unfit to have a licence. If he is unfit, he needs to be told. Similarly, if he is a fit person, a firearms certificate needs to be issued. Having such a protracted time frame is totally unacceptable.

Mr Dickson: At the very least, would you accept that, at some stage during that year, whatever information they can give should be given so that people know that their application is being processed or, if it is being held back, why?

Mr Mayne: Yes, I agree. The gentleman about whom I am talking contacted us, and we took up the case on his behalf. We advised him to write a letter of complaint to the Chief Constable, which he did. The letter of complaint was passed to the head of the firearms and explosives branch, who responded on the Chief Constable's behalf. The response was:

"The current position of your application is that it is outside firearms and explosives branch's own enquiry. I understand that the results of the enquiry should be made available to my branch in the near future, which will enable us to reach a conclusion in your case."



That letter was sent on 21 December, and still the gentleman has had no word.

Mr Dickson: Can you enlighten us on what that external enquiry may be? Would it be a medical enquiry, for example?

Mr Mayne: No.

Mr Dickson: Do you know?

Mr Mayne: It is an enquiry outside FEB control and possibly —

Mr Dickson: It could be a medical enquiry.

Mr Mayne: No. It could be an intelligence issue.

Mr Dickson: Could it definitely not be a medical enquiry?

Mr Mayne: No, I do not think so, not with such a protracted time frame.

Mr Dickson: Could it be to do with mental health or something like that?

Mr Mayne: I do not think so.

Mr Dickson: The bottom line is that there is a duty, as you rightly acknowledged, on the police to protect the community. Therefore, it is better that a person waits and that the community is satisfied that the licence is appropriately granted rather than rushing into a situation in which the public, or indeed that individual, could be at risk.

Mr Mayne: Absolutely, we could not agree more. As I said, we very much agree with the police if they think that somebody should not have a licence. We all agree that, if they should not have one, they should not have one. Nobody wants somebody out there with a firearms certificate if they are not fit to have it.

Mr Dickson: What if it takes a year for that determination to be made? There is nothing inherently wrong with taking a year if it protects society and the individual.

Mr Mayne: It should not take a year. It should not take that long.

Mr Dickson: That is a matter of opinion, and the police take a different view.

Mr Mayne: Absolutely.

The Chairperson: Just for my information, is the process for renewing the licence the same every five years?

Mr D Robinson: It is more or less the same process, other than that the applicant actually has his firearms.

The Chairperson: So, having been granted a firearms licence and deemed a fit person, are they being asked, five years later, to go through the process all over again?

Mr Plant: You have your firearms, however.

The Chairperson: Is it the same cost?

Mr D Robinson: It is exactly the same cost.

The Chairperson: So, if you have your firearms licence and are going for renewal, will you pay the same as someone who has never held a firearms licence?

Mr D Robinson: If I may, we recommended a 10-year licence to which the Chief Constable was strongly opposed on two grounds. The first was that he felt that five years was the limit to reject someone, and the second was the revalidation of the medical declaration.

The point with the 10-year licence is that the police already have a system whereby, 12 weeks before renewal, it is flagged up that someone is due to renew, so they send out the pack. That same system could be used on a 10-year licence to flag up that someone is due for their five-year security check. Updating the medical declaration is just someone saying, "No change". Just as a slight aside to that, the British Medical Association and ACPO are in discussion to see how the whole medical issue could be solved. One of the things that they are looking at as a future possibility is that, for everyone who gets a firearms certificate, their GP will be informed that they are a firearms certificate holder. There can be security arguments there if everyone knows that you have a firearm. However, it could go on the system in the same way as a driving licence. If your doctor decided that you were no longer fit to drive, they have a duty to inform the DVLA. That system should be looked at. So, we do not really follow the Chief Constable's argument about the 10-year licence. The system is already there, and, if it can flag up that I should be sent a renewal notice 12 weeks in advance, it can flag the police up to say "Check out Robinson again".

The Chairperson: It might not get the same revenue, however.

Mr Humphrey: Thank you very much your presentation. As I said, I heard your presentation this morning and the concerns that you echoed this afternoon. May I ask the question that I asked this morning, the answer to which was cut short because we ran out of time? Collectively, your organisations raised issues on the failure to process — [Inaudible.] — and so on. Have you raised those concerns with the police collectively? Have you made representations to them? If so, what was the outcome?

Mr Mayne: I can answer that. Thank you for the question. My short answer is yes, we have done that. If I may, I will talk first about the Northern Ireland firearms control liaison committee, which is an issue that the PSNI raised briefly during its part of the presentation. The Northern Ireland firearms control liaison committee was set up in about 2005. It is not a statutory body but a group of stakeholders and organisations such as ours. The PSNI chairs it, and the Department of Justice (DOJ) also attends. That group has not met since 20 April last year. That meeting was held in the BASC office in Lisburn. I remember that we were promised a meeting on 3 July in Antrim, but that did not happen. I do not know why it did not happen, but there has been a serious breakdown in communication between key stakeholders in that group, such as our three organisations, and the PSNI FEB at a high level.

To return to your actual question of whether we have raised those delays, the answer is yes. We raised them initially by e-mail with senior firearms licensing managers, and, as I said, the line that we get is that the current position is that they are outside the firearms and explosives branch on enquiry. We met with the Assistant Chief Constable (ACC) responsible for firearms licensing, George Hamilton, on 14 February to raise the issue of delays. Understandably to an extent, he would not talk about the specific individuals involved.

Returning to Mr Dickson's question, let me just elaborate and say that we take your point and that you have a valid argument. However, let me give you another example. We have another member who has been a firearms certificate holder for approximately 30 years. We recently advised him to write again to the Chief Constable with a letter of complaint over the way in which the paperwork for his application was dealt with when FEB processed it. It would seem that, every time that he put in an application for any reason, it attracted a delay. We are talking about periods of four, six or nine months and sometimes longer.

One of his straplines, if you like, was that, over a period of three years and seven months, PSNI FEB had his certificate for two and a half years. Again, it comes back to the point that a person is either fit or unfit. That gentleman has held a firearms certificate for 30-odd years, so why should he have to go through the mill every time that he submits a piece of paperwork to the firearms and explosives branch? As Mr Dickson highlighted, there will be exceptions around the year, and there are public safety concerns, but, again, we are struggling to get our head round that example.

Mr Humphrey: Presumably, inside the 30 years that he had the licence, there were no anomalies or abuses that warranted the branch holding on to it for that length time?

Mr Mayne: No, otherwise his firearms certificate would have been revoked.

Mr Humphrey: That is just appalling. The fact that there has been no meeting, even though in April last year one was promised for July, and nothing has happened is just appalling and, quite frankly, incompetent.

Mr Mayne: May I elaborate further? One of the most frustrating things about this is that the gentleman got his certificate during the period of the bad snow in the Province that lasted for a couple of weeks — I cannot remember exactly when. Two weeks later, he had a visit from firearms enquiry officers who wanted to inspect his cabinets. That visit should have happened before he got his certificate. One of the more frustrating problems is that that gentleman rang me on a Friday to tell me that he got his certificate. However, had he wanted to do another transaction with FEB on, say, the Monday, we very much feel that he would have gone back to the same problem of having another protracted delay, even though he had, in fact, already been cleared for his last transaction.

Mr Humphrey: This morning, you talked about — I think that this is your collective view — police accountability on these issues. As I said this morning, every party has representatives on the Policing Board, and I want to make it very clear that the police should be held to account on this issue and, indeed, on any other issue. Mr Dickson is right: no one should get a firearms certificate unless the police are absolutely certain, and we all agree with that. However, I am concerned about some of the periods that are being discussed. We have all dealt with people in our offices who are hugely frustrated because their certification has been held up through no fault of their own. The Policing Board should be brought into play on these issues. Have you sought recourse to the Minister about these issues?

Mr D Robinson: May I elaborate slightly on the forum that was mentioned? That was formed in 2005 and involved industry stakeholders, the DOJ, the police, and, previously, the NIO. We were referred to as the industry group. It worked very well at the start, because there was genuine engagement. Any of the groups — the Ulster Farmers' Union, the police or the DOJ — could throw a problem on the table and say, "What do you think?", and we would chew it like a dog at a bone so that people could get a sense of where it could or could not go. However, that gradually petered out.

There was a meeting in April last year, and the next meeting was scheduled for 3 July. However, the police, who was to chair it, postponed the meeting on 28 June, saying that the July holidays were the reason. We suspected that they did so because they had just issued a very contentious new security specification for dealers and they did not want to face us. That is my honest answer. So, the meeting was to be after the July holidays, and I suppose 28 February is still after the July holidays.

The accountability chain for dealers losing their livelihood goes all the way to the DOJ, because it owns the legislation.

Mr Humphrey: Have you sought recourse to the Minister?

Mr D Robinson: We have a meeting coming up with the Minister. We went to him directly, because his Department twice refused meetings — one before Christmas and one after — to discuss this. You can take things so far with the police, but somebody must be accountable, and, at the end of the day, the legislation belongs to the DOJ.

Mr Humphrey: You heard the comments that were made to your colleagues about sports and age, and I know that you mentioned this morning people who are 10 years of age. There is an issue with shooting being seen as a participation sport for not just young people but people in general. The sport or the industry — whatever term you want to use — needs to do something collectively to raise its profile. Has the BASC made any application to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) family, whether to the Department or to Sport NI, for funding for a development officer?

Mr Mayne: That is a good question, so thank you for that. It brings me on to a totally separate issue altogether. Sport NI responded to the firearms consultation, and one of the issues in that raised an eyebrow with us. Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that it did not see the increase in fees having any major impact on the economy or resulting in any reduction in numbers of certificate holders. More importantly for us, the Sport NI consultation response contained words to the effect that, although it recognised clay target shooting and target shooting and so on, it did not recognise hunting. That is an argument for another day, but it recognised fishing. I fail to understand how it can recognise fishing, where one person can kill a fish and cook it, but we could not do that for a pheasant.

Mr Humphrey: Competitive shooting, such as the type that is in the Commonwealth Games or the Olympics and so on, is clearly a sport. It is recognised by the Olympics as a sport, so it has to be developed as a sport. You spoke about getting new blood involved. Given the number of people in Northern Ireland who are involved in the sport and that you want to attract more young people in particular, I would have thought that DCAL or Sport NI would have been the first port of call for you collectively — or for whoever takes the lead on it — for some funding so that we can have more David Calverts and more golds, silvers or whatever returning to Northern Ireland, whether from the Olympics or the Commonwealth Games.

Mr Mayne: The presentation that we gave to the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure is a step towards that sort of engagement.

I will now hand over to Lyall.

Mr Plant: Thank you, Tommy. I will draw the Committee's attention to the fact that Countryside Alliance has started national shooting week, which will be held on the week commencing 13 May 2013. That initiative has the main aim of enabling anyone to try shooting for the first time and to promote respect for the understanding of legal firearms and airguns. Countryside Alliance Ireland and the other organisations have gained the support of a number of shooting grounds throughout Northern Ireland, such as Carnview Farms in Ballymena, Foymore Lodge in Dungannon and Hollow Farm outside Comber.

The initiative has been running in the UK for six years, and this is the first time that we have run it in Northern Ireland. We picked this year because of the consultation and because the age of the young shooters enables us to publicise the go-forward and make national shooting week an annual event to get new people in. Indeed, in the UK, secondary schools are brought to different shooting grounds free of charge to introduce them to the national sport of shooting so that they will hopefully bring back more Olympic gold medals. I know that the Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association has strived for years to get the age reduced. Its young shooters have to go across the Irish Sea to Scotland and England to practise so that they can win medals.

Mr Humphrey: I suggest that you knock DCAL's door.

Mr Mayne: Yes. That is part of a strategic plan.

Mr McCartney: Thank you very much for your presentation. I want to go back to the cost of a licence. The Department laid in front of us today the idea of full recovery costs, which is attractive in the processing of any licence application. You said that there should be no increase, so there is a gap. What do you consider full cost recovery? You quoted the Association of Chief Police Officers, so do you feel that its figure is the full cost?

Mr Mayne: I am not being funny, but our position is as stated in our consultation response. There should be no increase in fees without a full, transparent public review of the necessary processes in firearm licensing. Let us put those issues right and then look at fees.

I want to get to issues of accountability. We have talked about various types of delays, but there is one particular accountability issue that the Committee needs to be aware of. It is only when we get accountability that we will get people to buy in to any proposed increase in fees.

The BASC represents quite a number of firearms dealers who are what we call trade members. In January 2012, I attended a meeting of two of our firearms dealers and the head of firearms branch and his senior explosives licensing liaison officer. The agenda for the meeting was quite straightforward and simple. One of those dealers wanted to increase his holding of explosives. "Explosives" really translates as reloading powder. Someone like me or David could go along and buy a tub of powder and load our own ammunition. That is all legal and above board, and it is all papered up.

The legislation dealing with that is the Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2006. That sets out the separation distances in table format — at table 8, I think. I do not want to get too technical here, but a dealer could have his own property, a house and a store. The regulations lay down the distances at which he can store x amount of powder. Again without getting too technical, that distance is stated in the table as 30 metres. However, there is a line that states:

"The separation distance referred to in paragraph (4) is that which is equal to half the relevant separation distance".



In other words, if 30 metres is in the table, that means 15 metres. I am sure that the Committee has grasped quite quickly that half of 30 metres is 15 metres. The police refused to accept either our argument or his. It was not just a refusal; it was an arrogant refusal. It was a case of, "We are right. You are wrong. Close the door on your way out."

In the light of that, I wrote to the Department of Justice (DOJ) seeking clarification. Bearing in mind that this happened in January, it brought in a health and safety adviser in August. That health and safety adviser said, "You are right. You can have not only what powder you want but more than that, because it works on a pro rata basis."

The point that I am making is quite simple. The PSNI got that wrong, and that had a serious impact on that dealer's livelihood. That impact was on not only the powder that he could have sold over a period of nine or 10 months but all the ancillary items that go along with the powder, such as the cases, the presses and the dyes. I know that I am getting technical, and I do not want to go down that road. However, I am highlighting another issue where accountability is a major problem. Whenever they get it wrong, there is no recourse. There is nothing that we can do.

That issue dragged on for 10 months. The sad fact is that the issue was raised not just in January 2012; it had been raised four or five years earlier by the previous PSNI inspectorate. It was the same scenario, and the dealer was told, "We are right. You are wrong." That was a prolonged, protracted issue. At the end of the day, the dealer was right, and it was down to misinterpretation of what it states in the book. So, accountability is a major issue.

Mr McCartney: In that case, did the person concerned make a complaint to the ombudsman? If it was improper procedure, that is a matter for the ombudsman. If it is down to interpretation, that can be a contest. However, if it is something so —

Mr Mayne: I will speak, and David might then want to elaborate from a dealer's perspective. Firearms dealers have to tread a very thin line. They do not want to rock the boat, if you get my drift.

Mr D Robinson: Implied threats.

Mr Mayne: The implied threat is really what we are talking about.

Mr McCartney: You will never change anything if you stay silent.

Mr D Robinson: That is absolutely right. However, one thing that I would say about interpretation, Mr McCartney, is that, although I left school when I was 15, I can still read something that states "half the distance".

Mr McCartney: Do not get me wrong. I am only saying —

Mr D Robinson: I am not saying that you are saying anything to me about interpretation.

Mr McCartney: I am just saying that, in his presentation, Tommy said that it was clearly wrong. However, in the latter part, he said that it was a misinterpretation. It is easier to define whether something is right or wrong. However, if you say that it is a case of interpretation, as Alban will know, two lawyers could fight for the rest of their lives trying to say which interpretation is right and which is wrong.

Mr D Robinson: The point that I was making is that the regulations state that the separation distance should be just half the distance. Presumably, the police could read that as easily as we could.

Mr McCartney: I accept what you said about people feeling that, if they talk out of school, it will not augur well for the next time that they apply for a licence. However, at the same time, a mistake will never be corrected unless you say to the people that they will be held accountable. If you are arguing for accountability, you have to be part of the process of making people accountable.

Mr D Robinson: I am not talking about us as organisations. I assure you that I have no problem facing anyone. The problem is with the smaller dealers.

Mr McCartney: I understand your point.

Mr D Robinson: The chap that the DOJ brought over from England to resolve that case spent one day here. He arrived, nodded and said, "You are wrong." It cost £3,500 to have him for one day.

Mr McCartney: If the process is not corrected and the individual involved is not told that they acted wrongly, they could do the same thing again the next week. That is the wider point that I am making.

We moved from talking about the cost of a licence to accountability. I understand your point that there should be a proper forum where all these things can be aired. You are not opposed to full cost recovery; it is more that you are saying that there should be no change in the fee until you have the right instrument in place and can say that there is best practice.

Mr D Robinson: Full cost recovery has to be linked to best practice. No one sitting in this room would pay for a service that they are not getting.

Mr Mayne: I would not say that we are not opposed to full cost recovery.

Mr McCartney: It is the same with driving licences. We obviously wish that we got those free as well, but we do not. It is about trying to come up with something that people feel is right.

The two gentlemen talked about the sporting aspect, which brings me to my next question. What are the percentages of people who have a firearm for a sporting purpose and those who have one for other purposes?

Mr Plant: They are all for sporting purposes. Most of them are held for good reason. The firearms branch will not give you the definition of the term "sporting purposes".

Mr McCartney: I am a city person, so maybe I am the wrong person to be asking these types of questions. However, farmer sometimes get shotguns for pest control. That cannot be defined as —

Mr Plant: Sporting purposes; no. If their firearm were commissioned for farming control, they cannot go out and shoot a pheasant, because that is game. That would be sporting purposes.

Mr McCartney: We were saying earlier that we are trying to encourage young people into shooting as a sport. However, there is not a defined pathway.

Mr Plant: The defined pathway is through rural activities. It is through game shooting, rough shooting, working their dogs, clay-target shooting and all the way up. A lot of people coming into the sport start by going out with their fathers on a Saturday. They then take different paths, whether that is clay pigeon shooting or whatever.

I want to come on to your point about fees and the disproportionate conditions that are being placed on small firearms dealers who are there just as a repair-and-fix facility. They may hold only four or five firearms or parts of firearms at any one time. They may make new stocks for shotguns or repair the mechanisms. They are not in the same league as Mr Robinson or other dealers up North. However, the conditions that are being imposed on them are the same as those for the large dealers. They are being told to put them in vaults for security when their firearms holding is not the same as, and is possibly even less than, that for an individual person with a firearms certificate, yet their certificate fee will be the same as that for a large dealer.

Mr D Robinson: Under the licence that I hold, my holding of shotguns is unlimited, and my holding of air rifles is unlimited. Under my licence, I am allowed to hold 145-bullet-firing rifles and 45-bullet-firing handguns. The problem with these small guys is that they are artists.

Mr McCartney: Is the cost of the licence exactly the same, with no deviation?

Mr D Robinson: There is no deviation. Not only that, but the security requirements are the same. This guy might be in possession of two halves of a shotgun, along with the two different firearms. He may be repairing them in his little workshop, and they want him to build —

Mr McCartney: What would your solution be?

Mr D Robinson: There should be a third category of firearms dealer. As I said, we have a meeting with Mr Ford on 14 March. We have already asked his Department for two meetings on this, and that was refused. These guys are already losing their livelihood in this.

Mr McCartney: You are saying that there should be a third category, one of which is big dealer?

Mr D Robinson: Absolutely.

The Chairperson: I want to keep this moving, because we have been at this for a while now.

Mr Elliott: Thanks for the presentation, folks. I have a couple of quick queries. I will declare an interest as a firearms certificate holder and an owner of legal firearms. You mentioned the delays, and the explanation that has come back is that it is being considered by an external organisation for enquiry, I think it was. Am I not right in saying that that is not always the case and that there have been what I would term undue delays that have not been because they have been with an external organisation?

Mr Mayne: Yes. Currently, firearms enquiry officers (FEOs) do not fall under the control of firearms licensing, so, when someone submits an application to firearms licensing, it has control over the start of the process and the end of the process but not over the middle, which goes out with firearms enquiry officers. My understanding is that line management for firearms enquiry officers is done by what we call district, by their local station, which could be a sergeant or an inspector. Those firearms enquiry officers have a number of other roles; they do not deal with just firearms issues. There have been occasions where the issues lie outside firearms licensing, but, traditionally, there have been a lot of issues with firearms enquiry officers, so to speak.

There are really two issues. There are delays that are outside the firearms licensing control, which go to other agencies, and there are delays with the firearms enquiry officers. My understanding is that, if and when the fees issue is sorted out, the firearms enquiry officers will be brought under firearms licensing control.

Mr Elliott: I assume that your organisations represent a number of clubs, such as clay pigeon clubs. Do you think that it is appropriate that an application to join one of those clubs takes a year?

Mr Mayne: No.

Mr Elliott: Do you have any clubs where it takes a year for an application for membership to be processed?

Mr Mayne: No.

Mr Elliott: Therefore, I assume that you will say that a year is a highly excessive amount of time for an application for a firearms certificate to be processed.

Mr Mayne: Yes.

Mr D Robinson: Extremely.

Mr Elliott: What is your exact proposal on young shooters?

Mr Mayne: Two years ago, the Northern Ireland firearms controls liaison committee submitted a proposal to the Justice Minister and his Department for the minimum age to be 10, with that person being under the supervision of a 21-year-old with three years' experience with the particular type of firearm. I ask you to note that we were supported in that position by the Ulster Farmers’ Union.

Ms McCorley: Go raibh maith agat. I have a brief question. Do you have appropriate child protection policies and procedures?

Mr D Robinson: Individual clubs that work with young people have those things in place for minors.

The Chairperson: No one else has indicated that they want to speak. I am sorry, Tommy, would you like to add something?

Mr Mayne: There was a question earlier about the economic benefits of shooting. Some of you will have heard of the Public and Corporate Economic Consultants report, which was commissioned in 2006 by BASC, Countryside Alliance and a number of other organisations. I will ask Mr Elliott to pass a copy of that up to the Chair. Mr Beattie was correct to say that shooting sports alone contribute £45 million annually to the Northern Ireland economy, with another £10 million spent on conservation issues. The sport also employs the equivalent of 2,100 full-time jobs. We feel that it is inappropriate for the police to seek full cost recovery from a sport that contributes so much to the economy.

The Chairperson: An all-party group on shooting was established in the Assembly recently. Some members are not on it and wish to be. I am a member of it, and you will be very welcome.

Mr Elliott: I declare an interest as a member of that group, but I do not know whether I need to.

Mr Mayne: The all-party group is scheduled to meet on 12 March, and it will receive a further presentation on firearms licensing issues.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much, gentlemen.


03 Feb 2014 13:02
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
[bCommittee for Justice
Firearms (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland)
We very much support the age reduction for young shooters. Although the consultation proposed to reduce the age to 12, we are very much of the opinion that it should be reduced to 10
][/b]

Quote:
The agenda for the meeting was quite straightforward and simple. One of those dealers wanted to increase his holding of explosives. "Explosives" really translates as reloading powder. Someone like me or David could go along and buy a tub of powder and load our own ammunition. That is all legal and above board, and it is all papered up


gee whiz 303,dear santa have ya the kiddy reloading presse,the aged 12 got her firearms certificate :shock:


03 Feb 2014 16:55
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Northern Ireland Assembly

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Session: 2012/2013

Date: Thursday, 28 February 2013


Committee for Justice

Firearms (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2011: Consultation Outcomes

Rosaleen McCorley

Party:
Sinn Féin

Constituency:
West Belfast

Role:
MLA - West Belfast

Ms McCorley: Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. At the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure this morning, we heard from some of the gun groups about some of their difficulties and issues. They have concerns about delays in the processes, and all that. Mark, you said that that has been narrowed down, but I am not sure that they would see it in the same way. Given that there has probably been some breakdown in communication, or perhaps communication has not been that great, how useful do you think it would be if that stakeholder group were to meet regularly so that they had a forum for raising issues regularly?

Chief Superintendent M Hamilton: In the spirit of the Police Service engaging with all communities, including the firearms community, I have no difficulty in committing to a process through which people can engage and understand.

The difficulty that I have is that each firearms application is an individual application pertaining to one single person. Quite often, it relates to some personal data about that individual. The ability to talk about that in a forum with other people and to talk about specific issues even with that person during the application process is really highly limited. Therefore, I support talking to anyone about such concerns.

Where the delays are systemic, we have to make sure that we work those out with the community. Where the delays are specific to an individual and an individual's case, again, I have to make sure that there are no delays in the system processes. Some cases will take longer than others because of some very specific issues, which may be something as simple but as important as having to write to a GP three or four times to try to get the GP report. It is not unheard of for the process to be as repetitive as that. Equally, I would not discuss somebody's GP report, even the generalities, with a forum.

It is important for me to recognise that applicants consistently challenge us about delays. I know that it causes a great deal of concern, if not anger, at times. I have recognised that, particularly in the past, the process was slow. It is now considerably quicker. Does it deliver for every applicant as quickly as he or she would like? No. I believe that it does for the majority, but there are gaps. Some of those gaps are very legitimate, while some, I accept, can be improved on. I have no difficulty with committing to an ongoing consultative process, but with parameters around the privacy of people's applications.

Ms McCorley: Will you commit to meeting more frequently than what seems to have been the case?

Chief Superintendent M Hamilton: Yes. I have no difficulty with my department committing to that. If people were looking for access to the Assistant Chief Constable, for example, I could not commit to that. However, for firearms licensing branch, and so forth, I have no difficulty with that.

Mr Dickson: Apologies for being a few moments late at the beginning. All that I wish to do is place on record my interest as a member of the international all-party committee on the limitation of small arms and light weapons.

Mr Humphrey: Good afternoon. I, too, apologise for being late. Like Ms McCorley, I was at the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure this morning, at which evidence was given. We heard some stories of difficulties with police response times. I am sure that we will hear that evidence later. One case seemed to take an inordinate amount of time. I obviously do not know the details, and I am not asking you to comment on them, because you will not know them either off the top of your head, and it is not for this place to discuss them. It sounded to me, from some of the evidence that was given this morning, as though there seems to be a communication or dialogue issue. At the police end of it, is there an issue, because of your department's lack of resources, with ensuring that applications are dealt with expeditiously?

Chief Superintendent M Hamilton: I am reassured by my staff that they are dealing with applications expeditiously. Like any department in the Police Service, there are times when the resourcing goes up and times when it goes down, and there are gaps. That is no different in this branch, in community safety branch, for neighbourhood officers, or whatever. There are, quite constantly, gaps in staffing levels in police and police staff. We always try to resource up to as high a percentage as we can, but we generally do not run at 100% resourcing, for all sorts of budgetary reasons that are contained in the main grant.

The point that we are trying to make around full cost recovery is that we should be running that department according to that full cost recovery. We should not allow for inefficiencies elsewhere in the full budget. The hope is that we would not have to have internal discussions about where resources sit. There should be a ring-fenced resource for a certain department, and that has to be the commitment back to the community.

There have been a lot of very difficult discussions around this. The staff spend quite a bit of time every day dealing with very disgruntled people. We are guilty of this being a process: it is a firearms licensing process. We are processing licences on behalf of people. That is how it has evolved. We have tried our utmost to improve the processes, and I think that we have done so. The staff have done a very good job compared with where they were a number of years ago. Under their current leadership, they have done a great job in improving the processes.

As I said to Rosie, if there is more that we can do to reassure people, I am willing to do it. I am not blind or deaf to a lot of the concerns that have been raised.

Mr Humphrey: You clearly accept that, in some cases, there are problems. Obviously resources are not infinite.

Chief Superintendent M Hamilton: Absolutely.

Mr Humphrey: Are the people who are to deal with it police officers or public servants?

Chief Superintendent M Hamilton: No police officers, other than me as the deputy head of department and George Hamilton as head of department, are connected to the process.

Mr Humphrey: I ask because there is clearly an issue around costs and opportunity costs. If things are not progressed, there is a clear cost. I am sure that you continually review, but it is something that needs to be monitored. Income is important to your department, and greater efficiencies in the processing of the applications will mean greater income, which, ultimately, could mean more resource being put into the system.

Chief Superintendent M Hamilton: Yes, and, candidly, I accept that. In the vast majority of cases, we are doing that. There are a number of cases that, for medical reasons or, quite often, for intelligence reasons, slow down. Some of those have got more slow recently, if only for the reason that I and the head of department, George Hamilton, have decided that some of those cases need to be better questioned, rather than our just accepting what has been presented to us at face value. Rather than doing a refusal based on an intelligence case without actually interrogating that case a bit further, we will have further delay, and that is the case at present. That should be to the benefit and in the interests of everyone, and that part of the process is not managed in firearms licensing branch per se but by the police outside of that at present.

Mr Humphrey: In conclusion, I am not suggesting that, in all those processes, corners should be cut.

Chief Superintendent M Hamilton: The system is there, and, for good or bad, we have a system to try to ensure that people are fit to have a weapon and that they have good reason for having a weapon. Those are the two criteria, and the system is there. We try to ensure that that system has an increasing level of rigour in the interests of public safety, and for no other reason. It is certainly not to increase the times and certainly not for the purposes of increasing the costs. It is certainly not to question the fitness of the vast majority of people who have a firearms certificate in Northern Ireland. That is far from the case.

I suppose that we are always looking to deal with the exceptional, and there are exceptional situations, where fitness and good reason are called into question or where there is a public safety issue. Occasionally that does happen, and, therefore, we have to apply a high level of rigour. That includes, for example, recent issues where I have self-referred the Police Service to the ombudsman where there has been some sort of public incident and questions raised around whether we should have granted a certificate. The Chief Constable has tried to put that level of rigour to this, but it is not done with the desire of slowing the process down or frustrating people who need weapons for their job or who use them as part of their sporting activity.

Mr Easton: One of the new measures removes the need for the Chief Constable to issue certificates for people coming in from the rest of the UK. How many people came in last year? You obviously feel that there is no need for that any longer. It is a bureaucracy thing.

Mr Kidd: In 2012, 587 GB certificates were held.

Mr Easton: Doing away with that would remove a lot of bureaucracy?

Mr Kidd: The only requirement would be for someone bringing in an air rifle, because the licensing requirements for air rifles in GB are different, in that you do not require a firearms certificate for an air rifle in every case. That would still require a certificate so that the PSNI is aware that that firearm had travelled into Northern Ireland.

Mr Easton: You feel that there is no security risk with doing away with that?

Mr Kidd: The weapon has been licensed with a GB police force and is usually travelling for sporting or competitive purposes.

Mr Easton: The other bit concerns the granting or renewal of firearms dealers' certificates, and the price has gone up quite substantially. How may firearms dealers' certificates are there in Northern Ireland?

Mr Kidd: There are 108 registered firearms dealers in Northern Ireland.

Mr Easton: Will the huge increase from £150 to £528 cover all your expenditure?

Mr Kidd: Yes. That is predicated on a full cost recovery model.

Mr Easton: Do you not make any profit out of that?

Mr Kidd: No. It is not profit-making.

The Chairperson: Can you elaborate on why ACPO deems full cost recovery to be £274, yet its recommendation was £207? You said earlier that the individual licence fee is only 50%, but those figures are not far off those for the firearms dealer. If it has deemed that full cost recovery is £274, why is it twice as much here?

Mr Kidd: I cannot comment on the detail, Chair. I do not know what the ACPO calculations were based on and the number of visits, and so on. The legislation in GB is different from ours, but in the Northern Ireland system, there will be an initial visit when someone applies to become a registered firearms dealer and discussions with crime prevention, and so on. There is a process that we will go through. Our process is costed on the Northern Ireland system, and the system in GB is presumably different.

The Chairperson: ACPO's recommendations also take into account the inefficiencies that it recognised in the system, and it recommended the reduced fees so that those inefficiencies could be driven out of the system. Once that has happened, it will then have another review of the fees. Are the proposals that have been put forward today calculated on the basis of driving out the inefficiencies? Will they be decreased after another review?

Mr N Cochrane: I can perhaps help with that. When I was undertaking the review, one of my colleagues in business consultancy was undertaking the lean review — the whole systems thinking review — of firearms licensing branch, and, because I was working alongside him, I had the benefit of being able to see the outcomes of his review as he was going along. The aim of that review was, given the legislative framework and the IT systems that are in place, to make firearms licensing as efficient as it could possibly be. During the review, it was found that there was relatively little scope to reduce or remove unwanted or unnecessary process time. The delays and inefficiencies in the firearms licensing system were due to downtime, shelf time or dead time when that application was waiting to be worked on. The costings that were involved were in process time. Therefore, the inactivity in the application when it is sitting on a shelf has been excluded from the costings. Only the core activities have been costed.

The Chairperson: I thank you all very much for coming along. We appreciate it.

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/Assembly-B ... -Outcomes/


22 Feb 2014 16:03
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
N. IRELAND ASSEMBLY BUSINESS › Official Report › Committee Minutes of Evidence › Firearms (Amendment) Regulations (NI) 2011: BASC/CAI/GTGNI Briefing

Committee for Justice Official Report (Hansard)

Members Present

Givan, Paul (Chairperson)
McCartney, Raymond (Deputy Chairperson)
Dickson, Stewart
Easton, Alex
Elliott, Tom
Humphrey, William
Lynch, Seán
Maginness, Alban
McCorley, Rosaleen
Wells, Jim

Witnesses

British Association for Shooting and Conservation:

Mr Tommy Mayne

Countryside Alliance Ireland:

Mr Lyall Plant

Gun Trade Guild NI:

Mr David Robinson





What's the low down guys. I'm searching houses of the oireachtas parliamentary committees high up and low down. Tried committees for evidence reports on firearms amendment expecting the committee on justice, defence and equality would do the business, absolutely no way, hosay ?

TIA


24 Feb 2014 13:08
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
You shouldn't have gone to the trouble. Here in the south, negotiatons tend to rely on personal releationship & behind the scenes chats.

Reviews by a select sub-committee of firearms licensing, must rank lower down the list of priorities, to use this reliable method of inquiry.
It appears in the south, the Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality-was set-up to make recommendations to government for conducting examinations into more pressing matters.
The Select Sub-Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport?
Maybe this forum would be capable of holding a review into firearms licensing for 'sporting purposes', once the appropiate officials were invited, along with any relevant stakeholders concerned with an issue. An open trasparerent witness submission process, that ensures there is a meaningful input into 'key legislation' and policy areas to have real significance, helping to shape opinion and policy in an open-minded and impartial way, best practice as found elsewhere in other juristictions. Sporting issues that persist, can be resolved with a broader inquiry for greater reloading availabality to license holders and deal with as an example, such things as, sport shooting disiplins definations, defined in recent court cases etc,- dealth with by Sub-Committee, drawing expert withnesses testimony, dealing in fact to act as a buffer against hearsay & rumours.


25 Feb 2014 14:09
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
Here is how they do it in N.Ireland.
Attachment:
DSCN0714.jpg
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With 25% less area, the north has more sporting firearms facilities, that includes general reloading with existing 300 & 600 meter rifle ranges, and possible underground 300 meter range complex on the way and this recent addition..as well as, access to military ranges out to 600 yds..

Fir Mountain,Cookstown, N.Ireland
http://www.br-pc.co.uk/noticeboard.html



Quote:
Notice 4th Nov 2012 -
Dear Members,

I would like to confirm to everyone that our (the committee BR&PC) attempts at getting a Centre Fire rifle range for the use of YOU (the members) has finally came to fruition.
As of Wednesday the 31 st October 2012, the PSNI confirmed in writing, that our 300 meter range at Fir Mountain, Cookstown has been completed to their required specifications and is now classed as an approved shooting range.
The calibres which can be used on this range start at .17rf and go all the way through to .308 Win inclusive. There are of course restrictions on what calibres can be fires at certain distances and shooting stances etc. but they will be explained to you at the range by the duty Range Officer on the day.
Hopefully we will be able to enjoy years of SAFE, happy, accurate shooting on this range, just as we have done at Broughshane and are doing at the Loan Hill, Cullybackey.
None of this would have been possible were it not for the kindness and goodness of the owner of the land, Mr David Henderson, who has allowed us to construct this range to our own requirements, on His Land! Also a word of thanks to Mervin Young, Young Guns, Castledawson,  without whom our meeting with Mr Henderson might never have happened.
I trust that those of you, who have yet to see this facility in the flesh, will speak to myself or any member of the committee and arrange a visit to the Mountain and see this fantastic range first hand.
Once again the members of Ballymena Rifle & Pistol Club, acting as a Club, together, not as individual shooters, have what we might only have dreamt of or indeed, watched others do, strived for and achieved what we set out to do, to better BR&PC.
Now let us work together to keep and maintain what we have and go on to our next project. Whatever that might be?

Attachment:
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28 Mar 2014 13:07
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
Sikamick wrote:
One would imagine that the above is the normal way to do things correctly in a democracy, but down here well what can I say. Most things that the PTB are involved in goes ass ways or one gets the brick wall at the end of the road type of thing. Why or what is it that makes here different, is it something in the Irish PTB's mind set that makes them so fixed and inflexible. Does it stem back to the formation of the state this mistrust, just a thought. The word Consultation is lacking in their vocabulary in all areas of Government.
Sikamick

. Why or what is it that makes here different
bottom line,mistrust wont let ya on a military range :lol:


13 Apr 2014 09:45
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
Benny any time I speak, make comments or ask question on all and any of the above, I get the typical Irish response (Ah yea that's different Country / Location, it doesn't apply here.)


Sikamick


14 Apr 2014 23:39
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
Backstop Benny wrote:
Sikamick wrote:
One would imagine that the above is the normal way to do things correctly in a democracy, but down here well what can I say. Most things that the PTB are involved in goes ass ways or one gets the brick wall at the end of the road type of thing. Why or what is it that makes here different, is it something in the Irish PTB's mind set that makes them so fixed and inflexible. Does it stem back to the formation of the state this mistrust, just a thought. The word Consultation is lacking in their vocabulary in all areas of Government.
Sikamick

. Why or what is it that makes here different
bottom line,mistrust wont let ya on a military range :lol:


How can you trust a Government that wont trust its Citizens.
There is a lot of mistrust, paranoia in the Government and i think you are spot on Benny t stem's back to the formation of the state and it appears to be only in the Government they cant even trust each other.Its time the Government moved on, FYI THE WAR IS OVER,and it has been for nearly a century we live in a banana republic and our so called leaders are bent as F**K at least our Pres Michael D has the balls to stand up and be counted,inviting Lizzy over for the 1916 anniversary there's a man with a vision its time to bury the hatchet and start trusting each other.
Hawkeye :evil: :evil:


15 Apr 2014 04:25
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
http://youtu.be/cCLN6bzom1E NI Firearms Certificate covers rifles (single shot, bolt action, lever action, .22 semi auto), shotguns, handguns, air guns, paintball, crossbows, black powder firearms, one 1000 rounds


06 Oct 2014 08:58
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
SMLE 303 wrote:
http://youtu.be/cCLN6bzom1E NI Firearms Certificate covers rifles (single shot, bolt action, lever action, .22 semi auto), shotguns, handguns, air guns, paintball, crossbows, black powder firearms, one 1000 rounds


Just to point out the few minor differences between a Northern Ireland FAC and a UK mainland FAC -

1. As in the RoI, ALL air/gas-propelled gun-like objects over 1 Joule are classes as firearms. In the rest of the UK, only rifles over 12ft lbs and pistols over 6 ft lbs, that use air as a means of propelling the pellet, are classed as firearms.

2. In Northern Ireland, the probationary period served by a newcomer to the sport before he or she can apply for an FAC is one year. In the rest of the UK this is six months, or, if the applicant is a serving or former member of the Armed Forces, three months.

3. In Northern Ireland the purchase of reloading propellants [NOT black powder, which comes under another heading as a Class 1 Explosive], requires the use of and documentation of and on the FAC - in the rest of the UK you just walk into the store and buy it. Primers? You have to show that you are buying the correct size and type for the calibres that you are reloading, and the first time you do it in your usual gun store, or when going to a new store, is to show your FAC to the clerk. I can buy large rifle primers, as my calibres all use the same large rifle primer - I cannot buy small rifle primers, as I don't have a calibre that needs them. The same goes for handgun primers - small only, as I only have a .357Mag, and not large, as I don't have anything else that uses a primer to go bang.

tac

tac


24 Nov 2014 16:06
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
Blackadder wrote:
You shouldn't have gone to the trouble. Here in the south, negotiatons tend to rely on personal releationship & behind the scenes chats.


No bother at all mate ;)


Last edited by SMLE 303 on 20 May 2015 10:08, edited 1 time in total.



21 Jan 2015 18:35
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
Backstop Benny wrote:
Sikamick wrote:
One would imagine that the above is the normal way to do things correctly in a democracy, but down here well what can I say. Most things that the PTB are involved in goes ass ways or one gets the brick wall at the end of the road type of thing. Why or what is it that makes here different, is it something in the Irish PTB's mind set that makes them so fixed and inflexible. Does it stem back to the formation of the state this mistrust, just a thought. The word Consultation is lacking in their vocabulary in all areas of Government.
Sikamick

. Why or what is it that makes here different
bottom line,mistrust :lol:


The ever present perception factor must of been set on high, post the 2009 firearms act, that decided on a type of Canadian firearms licensing system, without looking at the nearest licensing system that worked from the northern perspective on the one Island.

Firearms (Northern Ireland)

There is roughly 150,000 legally held licensed firearms in the north of Ireland-

http://youtu.be/cCLN6bzom1E

Semi-Automatic Shotguns (2:30)

You are allowed a crimped or bunged semi-automatic shotgun holding no more than 3 rounds and a semi-automatic shotgun with an exemption for holding (5 rounds) for specific types of clay competition shooting.

Handguns (5:37)

You are allowed, "be it anything from a small calibre .22LR, to 9mm and .45ACP handgun with no magazine or cylinder capacity restrictions along with one "thousand rounds, "straight away"


Ammunition Allowance

You are allowed one thousand rounds (1,000) of ammunition "straight away" on your firearms license for Target shooting and an identical number of rounds for Hunting.


Reloading Ammunition

You are allowed to reload at home straight away on a N.Ireland firearms license.


That Tactical-Look Stock
http://youtu.be/K5LljQDf8_0

You are allowed tactical looking firearms in any colour including black.


Sound Moderator

You are allowed one straight away no questions asked


Informal Practice Shooting

You are allowed practice / zero and have fun shooting your licensed firearms.
You are allowed shoot at different targets and practice firing a string of semi-automatic shots, that is allowed, once you have land permission to shoot over. That condition was allowed for in the south of Ireland firearms act, prior to the firearms act of 2009.

Yes you can have firearms

http://youtu.be/xrDYXoLIMps


11 Feb 2015 19:02
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
tac wrote:
SMLE 303 wrote:
http://youtu.be/cCLN6bzom1E NI Firearms Certificate covers rifles (single shot, bolt action, lever action, .22 semi auto), shotguns, handguns, air guns, paintball, crossbows, black powder firearms, one 1000 rounds


Just to point out the few minor differences between a Northern Ireland FAC and a UK mainland FAC -

1. As in the RoI, ALL air/gas-propelled gun-like objects over 1 Joule are classes as firearms. In the rest of the UK, only rifles over 12ft lbs and pistols over 6 ft lbs, that use air as a means of propelling the pellet, are classed as firearms.

2. In Northern Ireland, the probationary period served by a newcomer to the sport before he or she can apply for an FAC is one year. In the rest of the UK this is six months, or, if the applicant is a serving or former member of the Armed Forces, three months.

3. In Northern Ireland the purchase of reloading propellants [NOT black powder, which comes under another heading as a Class 1 Explosive], requires the use of and documentation of and on the FAC - in the rest of the UK you just walk into the store and buy it. Primers? You have to show that you are buying the correct size and type for the calibres that you are reloading, and the first time you do it in your usual gun store, or when going to a new store, is to show your FAC to the clerk. I can buy large rifle primers, as my calibres all use the same large rifle primer - I cannot buy small rifle primers, as I don't have a calibre that needs them. The same goes for handgun primers - small only, as I only have a .357Mag, and not large, as I don't have anything else that uses a primer to go bang.

tac

tac


2. In Northern Ireland, the probationary period served by a newcomer to the sport before he or she can apply for an FAC is one year.
6:26 http://youtu.be/cCLN6bzom1E
Need I ask why newcomers undergo one year probationary for pistols http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass ... e_2013.pdf


04 Mar 2015 22:07
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
bit of northern probe and see carry on bull, fit/unfit for movin in with the ladies :lol: :lol:

http://www.1066rifleandpistolclub.co.uk ... -the-club/
http://www.pistolclub.co.nz/Join.html


05 Mar 2015 12:11
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Post Re: Licensed Firearms in Northern Ireland
N.Ireland application forms have a well defined option menu when making an application. Firearm details are listed down efficiently on the one page for each and every firearm[s] costing the same for one or more than one firearm when listed on the FAC.

This form is for applying [free of charge] for black powder or nitro powder and primers for reloading ammunition at a stated location which can be the firearms holders home address!
http://www.br-pc.co.uk/files/Powder-app.pdf


N.Ireland Firearms Leglislation
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisi/2004 ... tents/made


Target Shooting Firearms Application
http://www.br-pc.co.uk/files/30-40a.pdf

Application to Shoot over Lands
http://www.br-pc.co.uk/files/30-40.PDF

Firearms Application or to Renew Form
http://www.br-pc.co.uk/files/30-1_-_a4.pdf


Gallery Pictures of Ranges in Northern Ireland - (Note there no ground baffles ever and effective low costing backstop)  
http://www.br-pc.co.uk/gallery.html
Attachment:
N.I  Rifle & Pistol g0011427.jpg
N.I Rifle & Pistol g0011427.jpg [ 516.58 KiB | Viewed 16136 times ]


Firearms For Sale N.Ireland
http://www.br-pc.co.u


18 Mar 2015 15:38
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