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Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount St. 
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Joined: 19 Mar 2012 13:40
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Post Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount St.
http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2012/1219 ... nt-street/

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19 Dec 2012 21:47
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
This clip segment was shown on the six one & nine pm evening news. There's a 'growing appreciation' of the historical significance of these old guns have from various quarters.
Event Geometry of 1916 and the short range effectiveness of the 11 mm single shot Blackpowder 1871 Mauser, a study in itself !


19 Dec 2012 22:26
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3FgmAd9UTs

There is sorrow in my heart
O me old Howth gun.
That we lately had to part
O me old Howth gun.
In Ireland's day of need,
Ah you proved a friend indeed
When you made the bullet speed
O me old Howth gun.


I was glad when you were near
O me old Howth gun.
For no foeman did I fear
O me old Howth gun.
When your bark and bitter bite
Put the Saxon curse to flight
And he didn't stop to fight
O me old Howth gun.


O how glorious was your feel
O me old Howth gun.
When you made the Saxon reel
O me old Howth gun.
When the Lancers trim and neat
Came chargin' down O'Connell Street
But they beat a grim retreat
O me old Howth gun.


O the parting it was sore
O me old Howth gun.
Shall I ne'er see you no more
O me old Howth gun.
There is glorious hopes that we
Could have set old Ireland free
But now you're parted far from me
O me old Howth gun.


O the day will surely come
O me old Howth gun.
When I'll join the fightin' men
O me old Howth gun.
In some brave determined band
I shall surely take my stand
For the freedom of our land
O me old Howth gun.


Last edited by Sluggie on 22 Dec 2012 20:50, edited 1 time in total.



20 Dec 2012 12:02
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Large calibers were necessary due to the limitations of black powder, which limited velocities. When the French introduced their 8mm Lebel Model 1886 - the first successful smokeless propellant cartridge rifle issued to the military, it made all other military rifles obsolete.

The .303 Lee Enfield/SMLE and 8mm Mauser Gewher model 1898, redressed the balance improving on the French rifle & ammunition.
In Ireland at that time, modern arms were desirable leading to their captured where ever possible. The Howth rifles, single shot Blackpowder 1871 Mauser rifles, when landed and dispersed, generally by all accounts, were allowed pass unimpeded by british forces. Edward Carson in the North had at his disposal some of the latest issue modern rifles that included Mauser 98s, which were successfully smuggled north previous to the landings at Howth. This suggests the 1871 Mausers were not seen as any great threat. Today it makes little sense to restrict these guns under our modern southern Irish firearm laws, in some cases because of their caliber size, which by 1916 made the 1871 obsolete - why is this so, and will the law be amended for historical users of these old guns?




Reloading the 11mm, BP 1871 Mauser
http://youtu.be/9EUWsOd7d1Q

tac's guns 11mm Mauser 71/84
http://youtu.be/Sn6B8hvrXC8


20 Dec 2012 13:26
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Hi Blackadder,

Did all 1871 mausers have a tubular magazine or was it only certain variants?


20 Dec 2012 14:20
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
The later repeater models was designated accordingly. The 1871(R) with rimmed case used for testing in the video above, is single shot so it would appear with no prefix after 71/!


20 Dec 2012 14:32
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
was there broomhandles :shock: in the mount street battle 1916

http://youtu.be/nRrWhwj2FIw


20 Dec 2012 18:49
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Post Diarmuid Gavin Episode - 1916 The Battle of Mount Street
http://www.rte.ie/tv/whodoyouthinkyouar ... muid1.html


On Easter Monday, 24th April 1916, Patrick Pearse read the proclamation of the Irish Republic from the steps of the General Post Office in Sackville Street, Dublin. As this event was unfolding, battalions of Irish Volunteers were occupying strategically located positions throughout Dublin city in order to defend the newly declared republic. Earlier that morning members of the 3rd battalion, Irish Volunteers, under the command of commandant Éamon de Valera, occupied their designated position, at Boland’s Bakery. This was the beginning of one of the most successful military engagements of the 1916 Rising, a triumph for the Irish Volunteers and an unmitigated disaster for the British crown forces.

At 11.00 a.m that morning Lieutenant Michael Malone led a small number of Volunteers from “C” company, 3rd battalion, towards Mount Street Bridge, a key crossing point into Dublin city. Their orders; to prevent British reinforcements from entering Dublin.

Here they set up several well-located positions from the bridge to the junction of Northumberland Road and Pembroke Road. The original plan was to occupy five strategically located positions along this route. The first was Carrisbrooke House, the second was number 25 Northumberland Road, the third and fourth were the Parochial Hall and the Schoolhouse and the fifth and final position was Clanwilliam House. Later, a sixth position, that of Roberts yard would be occupied.

Section Commander George Reynolds, Daniel Byrne, William Ronan and James Doyle occupied Clanwilliam House, a large three storey Georgian building that commanded an excellent view of Mount Street Bridge and Northumberland Road. The Schoolhouse was taken over by Adjutant Denis O’ Donaghue, James Kavanagh, Robert Cooper and James Doyle. Joseph Clarke, Patrick Doyle, James McGrath and William Christian occupied the Parochial Hall. At Number 25 Northumberland Road, Section Commander James Grace, Lieutenant Michael Malone and two young boys Paddy Byrne and Michael Rowe, took up position. 
Immediately on entering their designated posts, the Volunteers began turning each position into an impenetrable fortress. Barricades of furniture reinforced the locked doors of each post.
As events were unfolding in Dublin, British High Command in England received an urgent request for reinforcements in order to put down an armed insurrection. The 59th North Midland Division mobilised and began immediate embarkation for Kingstown (Dún Laoghaire), Ireland.

As Lieutenant Malone fortified his post at 25 Northumberland Road, his attention was drawn to the sound of advancing of soldiers coming towards his position. These British soldiers formed part of the Home Guard and were returning from weekend manoeuvres to Beggars Bush Barracks. As they reached the junction of Northumberland Road and Haddington Road, Lieutenant Malone and James Grace opened fire into their ranks. Many men collapsed as they were hit while others ran towards the gates of the nearby barracks for refuge. They were unable to return fire, as their rifles were unloaded. After the gunfire had ceased, bodies littered the street. Locals ran from their houses to assist the wounded British soldiers. The dead and wounded were carried from the roadway.

Lieutenant Malone, realising the desperate battle that lay ahead, decided to send home the two young boys that were in number 25 Northumberland Road. At Clanwilliam House, Section Commander George Reynolds made the same decision and sent a young boy home before the fighting intensified. Over the next forty-eight hours the garrison on the road was to change in number. Unknown to Lieutenant Malone, the Schoolhouse was vacated and, its garrison returned to Boland’s Bakery. While some of the Volunteers at Clanwilliam House were directed elsewhere in the vicinity Richard Murphy, Patrick Doyle, Thomas and James Walsh later reinforced the position. The garrison at Clanwilliam House now numbered seven men. In total, seventeen Volunteers had taken up defensive positions on the street.

Early on Wednesday morning April 26th 1916 the newly arrived  British troops assembled on the quayside in Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire).  Some of these regiments were made up of young men from Nottingham and Derbyshire, known as the Sherwood Foresters. They were inexperienced soldiers who had only six weeks of basic training. Many had never fired a rifle. Orders were received that the 2/5th and 2/6th battalions were to make their way towards the Royal Hospital Kilmainham via  Stillorgan and Donnybrook. The 2/7th and 2/8th battalions were to follow the coast road through Ballsbridge and make their way to Trinity College. Carrying their full military kit they began to march towards the centre of the city. They rested at the Royal Dublin Society in Ballsbridge where they received information that the Schoolhouse on Northumberland Road was occupied by rebel forces. As the battalions moved out Adjutant Captain F.C Dietrichsen met his wife and young children on the roadside. He broke ranks and hugged them. He was delighted to see that they were safe, as he had sent them to Ireland to avoid the increased German Zeppelin raids in England.

From his position at 25 Northumberland Road, Lieutenant Michael Malone could see a section of British troops approaching the junction of Northumberland Road and Haddington Road.
It was twelve noon and James Grace and the young Lieutenant made ready. As the British soldiers reached the junction both men opened fire simultaneously.

The first volley of shots claimed the lives of ten men among them, Captain Dietrichsen. The order to drop was given and the British soldiers lay prone in the middle of the road, in full view of the guns of Malone and Grace who fired in to their ranks. The British troops charged the building but were repulsed, suffering heavy casualties. Attempts to outflank the building also resulted in more casualties. In order to storm the position, the crown forces needed to lay down a covering fire while assaulting the building with hand grenades. The regiments had failed to bring with them an essential part of their armoury, a Lewis machine gun. Having procured some hand grenades the men laid down a covering fire with their rifles and once again charged towards the building. Casualties were again heavy but this time they managed to blow the front door in.  At the same time a section of British troops gained entry to the rear of the house via Percy Lane.

Grace opened fire as the British troops entered the hall of Number 25 Northumberland Road. His gun jammed and he shouted to Malone to get out. Grace took refuge in the darkened basement and tried desperately to unblock his weapon. As Malone descended the stairs towards the hall, he was confronted by the British soldiers and was shot dead. In order to clear the house the military threw grenades into the basement but Grace had taken cover behind a metal stove, avoiding serious injury. He remained undetected until after the battle.

The Sherwood Foresters moved towards their next objective, the Schoolhouse. As they passed the Parochial Hall, the Irish Volunteers fired into their ranks at point blank range. Once again the British troops suffered horrendous casualties as three sections fell, dead or wounded on the roadway.  Having expended their supply of ammunition, the Volunteers retreated out the rear of the Hall and were arrested by the military as they attempted to escape.
Having stormed the Schoolhouse and finding it empty, the British soldiers turned their attention to Clanwilliam House. The Volunteers positioned at Clanwilliam House opened fire into the British troops as they advanced up Northumberland Road towards the bridge at Mount Street.  A desperate battle ensued. The defenders of Clanwilliam House fired volley after volley into the charging British troops. Time and time again they failed to cross the bridge. Bodies littered the road; the moans and cries of the wounded filled the air. Nurses and doctors from the nearby Sir Patrick Dun’s hospital came forward on to the bridge and after obtaining a brief ceasefire the wounded were taken from the battlefield. Moments later the battle resumed with the same vigour. On the sound of a whistle the British soldiers charged the Volunteer’s position. After many desperate attempts to cross the bridge the British finally succeeded and reached Clanwilliam House. Unable to gain entry via the doorway, they broke a window and climbed through. The military began clearing the building by throwing grenades into each room, an action that caused the building to catch fire and burn to the ground. In the desperate action at Clanwilliam House, three Volunteers lost their lives as crown forces assaulted their position. The surviving four Volunteers escaped through the rear of the building and evaded capture. Official British casualties amounted to four officers and 216 other ranks killed or wounded during the engagement at Mount Street.

Throughout the battle the Volunteer positions were supported by sniper fire from Boland’s Bakery and the nearby railway tracks. Their actions kept the small British garrison in the adjacent Beggars Bush Barracks pinned down for the duration of the Rising. Sniper fire from each side resulted in many civilian casualties. Mrs Elizabeth Kane was shot dead and her daughter seriously wounded, as was Mr. Hayter, a local grocer. Mr C. Hyland who assisted the wounded Sherwood Foresters on the bridge was shot dead as he stood in the doorway of his house. A British officer, Captain Gerrard, stationed in the nearby barracks recalls,
One of the sentries in Beggars Bush Barracks, about Tuesday evening, said to me, ‘I beg your pardon, sir, I have just shot two girls.’ I said, ‘what on earth did you do that for?’ He said, ‘I thought they were rebels. I was told they were dressed in all classes of attire.’ At a range of about two hundred yards I saw two girls-about twenty (years old) – lying dead.

The story of the Battle of Mount Street Bridge is both tragic and heroic. The scenes that unfolded in this leafy suburb were reminiscent of the terrible warfare of the Western Front during the First World War.  It is a little known fact that there were more civilian casualties in the 1916 Rising than there were military casualties.

Today, much of central Dublin has changed as many areas were rebuilt in the years that followed the Rising. Though Clanwilliam House was destroyed, the other posts on Northumberland Road remain more or less as they were that Easter week, a stark reminder of the carnage and death visited on this stretch of road that spring day of 1916.

Gerrard, Capt. E W.S Bureau of Military History


20 Dec 2012 18:51
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Post Re: Diarmuid Gavin Episode - 1916 The Battle of Mount Street
Some more info and old pictures and video Mount street.

http://www.nli.ie/1916/pdf/7.11.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cew_ZLgi ... creen&NR=1


20 Dec 2012 19:38
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Yes Micheal Malone used a broomhandle Mauser at 25 Northumberland Road during the Battle, but you all knew that did'nt you :D


20 Dec 2012 23:46
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
See us shooting the Mauser 71/84 - with its 11mm centre-fire paper-patched bullet - on tac's guns 11mm Mauser 71/84.

tac


21 Dec 2012 00:01
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Thanks Sean for sending this article published in yesterdays Irish Times.
To read this article, place mouse over picture and click left button.
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1916 GunTest.jpg [ 2.21 MiB | Viewed 133310 times ]


Yes there was a Mauser C-96 used by Irish Volunteer, Lieut Michael Malone (25) on Northumberland Road. This C-96 Mauser tested was his pistol from what the article says.

Interesting quote; "civilian marksmen Stephen.H & JP.C fired the Enfield and Mauser [1871] respectively. The Enfield won easily getting six out of six into the bull. The Howth Mauser was like a blunderbuss"....


21 Dec 2012 19:12
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Great to see the old rifles in action, big old awkward things, it's amazing that calibres above 7.62mm /.308, in these old historical rifles are on the restricted list. Who was the bright spark that introduced that into the firearms act I wonder.


22 Dec 2012 01:04
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Post Re: Diarmuid Gavin Episode - 1916 The Battle of Mount Street
Mick, my head is spinning for trying to tie all these threads together. Can you please merge them all under a common heading? It's hard enough trying to keep it all together on the other forum, what with it being under not only shooting, but history, and I hope that you are all getting to read the stuff I'm putting over there.

This is the latest post - I've just highlighted the bit about US!!!

tac foley
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Adverts | Friends [QUOTE=Wibbs;82340281] Similar to what Tac mentioned above about ammo. I do clearly recall the guy at the range saying that it was more expensive to shoot as although there were modern rounds available that would fit they were too powerful and could cause dangerous failures so they had to make up rounds for it. Might have been BS I dunno? The other aspect to shooting vintage guns would be simple age and wear and tear I would think? Depending on how many rounds went through a firearm, results between a barely shot display piece and a well used ex military piece would vary a lot I would think? [QUOTE]

There has been NO commercial loading for the original 11mm Mauser BP cartridge since the middle 1930's.

Canadian Industries Limited - Dominion brand - of Canada once offered a smokeless load for sale in the USA and Canada - these are now collector's items. I have three unfired and paid $10 each for them about twenty years ago.

An up-graded version of the cartridge was made available for a short period of time for Heinrich Krieghoff of Suhl, to shoot in their custom-built hunting rifles, but that all ended with the start of WW2 and never resumed. Here in UK the Mauser Model 71/84 is classed as obsolete and can be owned [but not fired] without any form of license whatsoever. The ones that you see being fired on my Youtube movies are licensed Section 1 firearms.

As for being safe to shoot, your Irish guns were, according to hearsay, pretty much STS even before you got them, as a glance at the one being fired will show you. I've never seen one over here, where they are in regular use, that is as uncared for as that one appears to be. It is not my place to express concerns over the degree of expertise involved in the authentic replication of the original military loads by experts in the RoI, where reloading has only recently been introduced for modern target ammunition using modern propellants, or to query the origin of the paper-patched lead bullets, cases and hard-to-find Berdan primers, so I'll leave it at that. However, I find it odd that there is no mention of asking for any help or advice from people who DO shoot these old guns on a regular basis - the nearby HBSA and VAA in UK [shrug]. Even in the little [256 members] club to which I belong, there are at least five of them in regular use with authentic loads.

Here in UK we've been reloading this round for many years, and never managed to damage a gun yet, but then, we also have a couple of national proof houses where they can be tested before we fire a shot from them, in accordance with the laws hereabouts, and you guys don't have that facility.

Looking at it from a more parochial point of view, it's a great shame that the members of the IRISH Vintage & Classic Rifle Association - the only such body on the island given over to the shooting of arms of this kind, were not involved in some way with this venture. Sure, the 11mm Mauser is a restricted firearm under current laws, but the Lee-Enfield of the appropriate vintage is a common firearm in that group of keen shooters.

@ mods - do you think that this would be a good idea to merge the threads with the one over in 'shooting'?

tac
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Last edited by tac foley; Today at 20:55.




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23 Dec 2012 20:49
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
Jaysus wept I wish but the limit 7.62 and in any event an 8 mil mauser was out of the question from what I was told.
Happy Christmas. Ray


23 Dec 2012 23:06
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Post Re: Diarmuid Gavin Episode - 1916 The Battle of Mount Street
Diarmuid Gavin the gardener lad :mrgreen:


23 Dec 2012 23:10
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Post Re: Diarmuid Gavin Episode - 1916 The Battle of Mount Street
tac wrote:
.................... but the Lee-Enfield of the appropriate vintage is a common firearm in that group of keen shooters...........


"Irish Lee Enfield Rifle Association" weren't invited either and some of our members have period Enfields too.


23 Dec 2012 23:15
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Post Re: Diarmuid Gavin Episode - 1916 The Battle of Mount Street
Perhaps this thread should be merged and moved to where the 'battle of Mount Street' can be decoded in greater detail. Pruning can be expected to occur specifically with historical topics such as this one in order of keeping the subject matter focused. There may be opportunities before the 1916 anniversary by RTE of recording a real reenactment event and tactics deployed used on that day during 1916. Where was the battle lines drawn, who was commanding and how effective was the various firing positions, etc etc. This is more likely to explain why small numbers can be so effective, rather than testing the ballistic qualities of often the same ammunition used on both sides.

Quote:
"Irish Lee Enfield Rifle Association" weren't invited either and some of our members have period Enfields too.


An association going by that specific name could allow its membership reenact the part of the side with the most Enfields during the battle of Mount Street for instance! This is only reasonable as the VCRAI has an open door policy towards Vintage & Classic firearms, and as such, is not bound to the rules of deciding on the historical merits of association of one name in firearms history.

There is the LERA who's secretary I believe posted here, going by the name of Strangely Brown. This association may also be interested participating in any events that may take place!

http://www.leeenfieldrifleassociation.o ... wpage=home


24 Dec 2012 11:07
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
The LERA are based in the UK

The ILERA are based in Ireland, obviously, & can be contacted here

http://irishleeenfieldrifleassociation.com/

and here

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/groups/ilera/

and here

http://www.irishshooter.com/showthread.php?t=5759

Plenty of potential participants between us all :)


24 Dec 2012 17:50
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Post Re: Easter Rising weapons fired to explore Battle of Mount S
i'll pass your details bunny if ya lend a hand ;)
Quote:
Throughout the battle the Volunteer positions were supported by sniper fire from Boland’s Bakery and the nearby railway tracks. Their actions kept the small British garrison in the adjacent Beggars Bush Barracks pinned down for the duration of the Rising. Sniper fire from each side resulted in many civilian casualties.


wonder was they scoped smelly snipers, slings a plenty:shock:


24 Dec 2012 22:00
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